There's well researched and thoughtful arguments backed up by mountains of data drawing completely different conclusions all over the internet.
My take on it-- you can get rid of guns but you'll still have murderous whack jobs and there's plenty of options left for the would be killers. Anything can be a weapon. Suicide bombing is very popular in the Middle East, you can drive a car into a crowd of schoolkids without any background checks. If you happen to be a pilot and your girlfriend breaks up with you you can crash a whole plane full of people into the Alps as happened earlier this year. A propane tank off a gas grill would kill plenty of people for $20 and you can get them at the convenience store.
There's obviously a huge problem in this country but I don't think there's an easy or clear answer.
Yes to all of this! Also, I was a public school teacher in a shitty city school for a period of time and dealt with so many kids who had anger or behavioral issues. I worked really hard with my kids but overall, I think there's more that can happen in schools. Some kids see their teachers more than their parents. To be able to teach grade school students coping skills and anger management and anything else that might help them find alternatives to instant anger and retaliation could be so valuable. Just a tiny piece of the puzzle that could help us grow better members of society.
We also have such split worlds. In the city we have people who are products of their environment...thinking it's okay to shoot someone in the face because they looked at you the wrong way. Then we're having these suburban kids show up with an arsenal of weapons and go postal on schools. The only thing that's certain is there's no single cure-all to this problem.
Better mental health care, better social connections, better communities. We've been trying gun control forever, but it only seems to make the problem worse.
The link below is to a talk by Johann Hari on addiction, but I think the concepts he brings up can be applied to many other social problems, including the gun control debate. If I could make everyone in the world watch this, sit down, and think about it for a while, I would. It's only about 15 minutes long. Give a listen:
It seems to me that all of the mass shooters are on some kind of psychotropic drugs. I think we need to stop giving mind altering drugs to people when we don't know the long term effects.
Redhorse, I'd be interested to know why you think that. Are you talking about pharmaceutical drugs, or recreational drugs? Or both? Plenty of people take both, but the overwhelming majority don't turn to suicide or homicide after the fact.
There is something deeply wrong with our society. We live in a disconnected disposable society. Everything can be tossed aside, sadly even people. When we all view people as disposable objects, too many get cut off or fall through the cracks. We're an inherently social species: it's hard-wired into our DNA. Utterly isolated and without any connections, people start to behave strangely. Sometimes violently. I think to look at "drugs" as the problem is to slap a band-aid on the sickness, rather than trying to cure the underlying problem.
Have you ever known anyone on psychiatric drugs? Have you ever read the list of side effects? Suicide is on the list of every anti depressant and anti psychotic drug. No, the majority who take the drugs don't kill anyone, just like the overwhelming majority of people don't kill, but the people who take those drugs are at greater risk. Both recreational and prescription drugs can harm people.
I don't think we are any sicker as a society or as individual people than we ever were. I do think the media tries to sell us that idea because they can sell more advertising at a higher price. I see a lot of reasons to believe we are wiser and better than we used to be.
I spent 15 years working as a counselor in a mental health clinic. I spent all day ,every day, talking to people on psychiatric drugs. Or self-prescribing with alcohol and recreational drugs. My observations of these people over the years led me to believe that the underlying root of all of their problems was an overwhelming sense of isolation in the world. They thought no one cared about them, ever did, or ever will. The ones that I could help to build some kind of social network, that ones that could be guided to find a purpose in life, vastly improved. This might sound weird to people on a mostly homestead-y sort of blog, but I know firsthand what worked, and what didn't.
I had a horrible childhood and am an isolated adult. I feel like no one cares about me, ever has or ever will. But shit, I would never go get a gun and kill anyone anywhere for any reason. There must be more to it than psyche.
Nor would most people. But without enough support and care, a few get driven over the edge, and everyone acts out their problems in a different manner. I'm not saying better quality and access to mental health care would be a cure-all, but I do think it would significantly ease the problem.
And I'm sorry you feel that way about yourself. I've been there myself.
I was on such drugs for a few years, and about 80% of the department I worked for ended up on some kind of anti-depressant due to extreme abuse from upper management. I can tell you first hand that I had many many days when I had complete breaks with reality. There were days when I had thoughts or memories that I didn't know if they were real or something I had dreamed. I was not alone in that. After that experience I knew how easy it would be for someone to commit suicide or murder without understanding the reality of it, especially young people who don't have a strong sense of self yet.
Redhorse, better mental health care, at least in my opinion, does not mean resorting to drugging everyone who presents any kind of problem. I think psychiatric drugs are widely over-prescribed. I was briefly on them for a few months a few decades ago when I was in my 20s, and it was a miserable experience, just as you described.
Most importantly, the drugs don't solve any problems. They just mask them. For people who really want to work through their psychological issues, they're going to have to WORK with a therapist. It's not just a matter of sitting around re-hashing your childhood with someone in a closed room. For many of the people I've worked with, it's the hardest thing they've ever done. This takes a significant of time and effort from both the client and the clinician.
And it's still barely enough. Which is why I say we need far more time, money, research, and funding for mental health care. And a lot less for gun lobbies.
I know this might be a controversial thought, but I wonder if, as our society becomes more distant from religion, these crimes will become more common. If one believes there is nothing after this life, why not kill others, especially if you're already willing to kill yourself. There also seems to be a greater respect/beat-down culture that sees vicious fighting or killing as admirable? As far as rights go... my rights should not be restricted, nor should I be treated as a criminal when I'm not. Further - let's see those who would like to strip us of these rights put aside the weaponry used for their protection. Their lives, to me, are no less replaceable than anyone else's.
I am not religious, and I find your assumption that people who are not religious would be more likely to kill others very insulting. I have a very strong sense of ethics and right and wrong. Ethics/morals come from the society you live in, how you were raised in that society, and the society's ideas of right and wrong.
Let's look at the Crusades or any other manner of "Holy Wars" all fought in the name of religion, and all bloody and extremely cruel. Wars are fought over resources. Often the powers that be incite(d) the people to war by invoking some religious reason they should do so. They used religion to spur people to fight a war over resources that the leaders wanted.
I think most blanket statements and generalizations can be dangerous. It's smacks of prejudice to me. "Oh, black people are like this; Asians are like that," or "people who are more distant from religion are more likely to kill." Please...
Just so you know... the hypothesis about religion and mass killings had nothing to do with "morals" or "ethics." And there were no "blanket statements." My thoughts had more to do with a fear of the afterlife, or consequences that reverberate in the soul. This pertained to these mass murder events that are in the news especially having to do with gun rights. Certainly, a zealous atheist or agnostic could have any sort of sense of right and wrong that meets their own self-determined standards. But, unlike a Christian or Hindu, they probably don't worry about what happens to them after this life. But now that I reread my post, I was clear about this the first time. I'm pretty sure these mass-murderers, pagan, atheist, Jewish or none-of-the-above, had a ethical/moral upbringing sufficient to know that what they were choosing to do was wrong. But did they worry about Hell, or did they think their suffering would end with their death? Now, war is an entirely different case. I was writing about the Oregon shooting and it's effect on gun rights.
Adam Lanza of the SandyHook shootings was raised in a Catholic school. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
One of the kids from the Columbine shooting was raised Lutheran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Harris_and_Dylan_Klebold
James Eagan Holmes of the Colorado movie theater shootings in 2012, was raised in a Lutheran church https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Eagan_Holmes
My grandfather, a devout Catholic was extremely cruel. He loved to smack us around(starting when we were about 2yrs old), and laughed at us when we cried. He also had a "Yeah, so what?" attitude about being a child molester.
Yes, there have been Atheist shooters also, but clearly being Christian/religious isn't a guarantee for a good, moral person
FWIW, a good friend of mine is a staunch Atheist and gun owner. He's very kind and generous and also one of the most level-headed, sane people I know. He got that way without religion.
C., just because people align themselves with a particular religion does not make them a Christian, even if they go to church, read the bible, were raised in a church or claim to be devout.
These people may have had a church affiliation, but Jesus was definitely NOT in their heart or guiding their life.
Who gets to decide which people are "real" Christian?
There are terrorist Christian organizations, the KKK is a Christian organization, abortion clinic bombings/killings are often linked to militant Christian groups https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
In most all of these mass shootings, the shooter has a history of some sort of psychosis/mental instability, being bullied/rejected(perceived or otherwise), and close access to lots of guns. No amount of religion will stop psychosis.
Totally agree C. Imo gun violence is a result of a bigger issue. Like the symptom of a disease or condition not the root cause. We have to find and treat with the root cause. Until will do violence with guns or something else will not subside.
I think both lobbying sides of the gun control issue use scare tactics and extreme examples. I believe there has to be a sensible middle that includes better controls (background checks, gun show loophole closed, restricted magazine sizes for automatic weapons, and accountability for the industry) along with a focus and money for mental health and a commitment to address chronic poverty/systemic community oppression. Easy right?
I'm confused redhorse. I found this info (it doesn't have a date on it) clearly showing that background checks at gun shows are required in some states, but not every state.
Background checks and waiting periods are already required. I had to wait 2 weeks to get my .22 and fill out a raft of paperwork.
Magazine size is restricted in many states. But, many mass shooters have not used large magazines. In CA my shotgun can only old 3 shells and my .22 mag limit is 10.
If you make the gun manufactures liable then you open up a very messy and damaging can of worms, not just for the gun companies, but for any company whose product could be used to kill someone, i.e. cars, toys, tools, anything has the potential to be a weapon in the hands of someone bent on causing harm.
I think the bigger and conversation is how have we gotten to a point where young people feel that shooting up a school will solve their problems or relieve their pain. How have we sunk so low as a society that our young people feel so helpless and angry and lash out?
Not an easy question, any of it. But, one thing I do know is that a society has never been improved by taking away their rights and liberties.
I think both lobbying sides of the gun control issue use scare tactics and extreme examples. I believe there has to be a sensible middle that includes better controls (background checks, gun show loophole closed, restricted magazine sizes for automatic weapons, and accountability for the industry) along with a focus and money for mental health and a commitment to address chronic poverty/systemic community oppression. Easy right?
my two cents... -require extensive training and liscencing in order to own a gun (it's easier to get a gun permit than a drivers lisence) -put high federal/state taxes on firearm sales like we do alcohol or tobacco -use the tax revenues to fund mental health care & strengthen local communities where there are rampant problems
Agree 12:04. I'm not against legal gun ownership, but I do think that semi and fully automatic weapons, and assault weapons should only be available to military and police. There is absolutely NO reason any regular citizen should have the need for one of those weapons.
Yes. I believe that for most people, guns fall into the category of a luxury item, that's why I think guns and ammunition should be heavily taxed like alcohol and tobacco. I live in a rural area, where there seem to be more than a few gun owners. Most fall into two categories: gun collectors, and sport hunters. Neither are a necessary pasttime. Even living in a very rural area, I know of exactly one person who hunts for food. You could have legal exemptions for those who truly need a gun for their occupation (say a rancher who needs to pick off the occasional marauding predator), much like I have a state sales tax exemption number for farm purchases.
As a small single woman who has been sexually assaulted in the past, I have a concealed carry license and own a small handgun for personal protection. I attended many gun safety and training classes. I have thankfully never had to use it. I would happily pay high taxes for the privilege of owning it, and jump through as many legal hoops as necessary to maintain my license. If we could just make the licensing laws much tighter.
I absolutely do not see the need for any citizen to own anything other than a handgun or single-shot rifle.
"gun collectors, and sport hunters. Neither are a necessary pasttime."
Dictating one's past time is not the job of the govt. What if there was a ban on something you liked to do? Like gardening. It's not necessary to garden or homestead, we have farmers to provide us with food and multinational companies to bring it in from all over the world.
Most hobbies and past time pleasures are not necessites.
When making a knee jerk reaction/plan to curb this kind of tragedy you have to be careful what the long term ramifications could be and how other areas, rights, liberties will be affected by it.
I heard an interesting NPR segment that said certain immigration rules, made in the 60's, meant to curb immigration from non-European countries actually was the door that opened massive immigration, which was not the intended goal.
Guns and ammo are already heavily taxed. The cost of taxes and registration is more than the cost of the gun and bullets. When the communists took over China they decided that dogs were a waste of food and they went through the country killing them. I don't want to live in that kind of country, and neither will you if you experience it.
Mexico has no legal gun ownership, and they are not a peaceful society. Chicago has a total ban on gun ownership and the highest number of shootings per capita.
Yes gun violence is highest in places with strong so called gun controls. DC is another high violence area.
Plus there are bans, laws, regs on lots of things that are out of control--drugs, underage drinking, zero tolerance for bullying etc.
These are not (fill in the blank) issues these are human issues. Until you deal with and fix the human element you won't solve the result of the human issue i.e. Gun violence.
Again, it gets down to how far we have sunk as a society overall not the perceived ease of buying guns and ammo. I mean seriously how many times more do we read in the news about a group of thugs beating up an old person or disabled person for fun. In my area we have a huge reward out for info on the people who beat and skinned a dog before killing it. What kind of completely lost, sick, deranged people do that and then make fun of it in a note? That's the human element I'm talking about. If people are bent on that kind of savage behavior they will find a way, and controls, bans, waiting periods have nothing to do with it.
Speaking as someone who lives elsewhere in the world (looking from the outside in), seems to me that the U.S. collectively needs to have a serious, robust, non-politicised conversation around gun control. Also seems to me that the right to bear arms (as enshrined in your Constitution) was relevant when it was enacted, but is rather outdated in our modern world.
There's well researched and thoughtful arguments backed up by mountains of data drawing completely different conclusions all over the internet.
ReplyDeleteMy take on it-- you can get rid of guns but you'll still have murderous whack jobs and there's plenty of options left for the would be killers. Anything can be a weapon. Suicide bombing is very popular in the Middle East, you can drive a car into a crowd of schoolkids without any background checks. If you happen to be a pilot and your girlfriend breaks up with you you can crash a whole plane full of people into the Alps as happened earlier this year. A propane tank off a gas grill would kill plenty of people for $20 and you can get them at the convenience store.
There's obviously a huge problem in this country but I don't think there's an easy or clear answer.
Just my thoughts, happy to hear others.....
These are my thoughts as well.
DeleteI agree, you said everything I wanted to say better than I could have myself.
DeleteYes to all of this! Also, I was a public school teacher in a shitty city school for a period of time and dealt with so many kids who had anger or behavioral issues. I worked really hard with my kids but overall, I think there's more that can happen in schools. Some kids see their teachers more than their parents. To be able to teach grade school students coping skills and anger management and anything else that might help them find alternatives to instant anger and retaliation could be so valuable. Just a tiny piece of the puzzle that could help us grow better members of society.
DeleteWe also have such split worlds. In the city we have people who are products of their environment...thinking it's okay to shoot someone in the face because they looked at you the wrong way. Then we're having these suburban kids show up with an arsenal of weapons and go postal on schools. The only thing that's certain is there's no single cure-all to this problem.
Better mental health care, better social connections, better communities. We've been trying gun control forever, but it only seems to make the problem worse.
ReplyDeleteThe link below is to a talk by Johann Hari on addiction, but I think the concepts he brings up can be applied to many other social problems, including the gun control debate. If I could make everyone in the world watch this, sit down, and think about it for a while, I would. It's only about 15 minutes long. Give a listen:
http://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_you_know_about_addiction_is_wrong?language=en
I watched that Ted last night, it was interesting. Thanks.
DeleteIt seems to me that all of the mass shooters are on some kind of psychotropic drugs. I think we need to stop giving mind altering drugs to people when we don't know the long term effects.
ReplyDeleteI also think a lot of stabbings, stranglings and suicides can be attributed to the same drugs.
DeleteRedhorse, I'd be interested to know why you think that. Are you talking about pharmaceutical drugs, or recreational drugs? Or both? Plenty of people take both, but the overwhelming majority don't turn to suicide or homicide after the fact.
DeleteThere is something deeply wrong with our society. We live in a disconnected disposable society. Everything can be tossed aside, sadly even people. When we all view people as disposable objects, too many get cut off or fall through the cracks. We're an inherently social species: it's hard-wired into our DNA. Utterly isolated and without any connections, people start to behave strangely. Sometimes violently. I think to look at "drugs" as the problem is to slap a band-aid on the sickness, rather than trying to cure the underlying problem.
Have you ever known anyone on psychiatric drugs? Have you ever read the list of side effects? Suicide is on the list of every anti depressant and anti psychotic drug. No, the majority who take the drugs don't kill anyone, just like the overwhelming majority of people don't kill, but the people who take those drugs are at greater risk. Both recreational and prescription drugs can harm people.
DeleteI don't think we are any sicker as a society or as individual people than we ever were. I do think the media tries to sell us that idea because they can sell more advertising at a higher price. I see a lot of reasons to believe we are wiser and better than we used to be.
I spent 15 years working as a counselor in a mental health clinic. I spent all day ,every day, talking to people on psychiatric drugs. Or self-prescribing with alcohol and recreational drugs. My observations of these people over the years led me to believe that the underlying root of all of their problems was an overwhelming sense of isolation in the world. They thought no one cared about them, ever did, or ever will. The ones that I could help to build some kind of social network, that ones that could be guided to find a purpose in life, vastly improved. This might sound weird to people on a mostly homestead-y sort of blog, but I know firsthand what worked, and what didn't.
DeleteI had a horrible childhood and am an isolated adult. I feel like no one cares about me, ever has or ever will. But shit, I would never go get a gun and kill anyone anywhere for any reason. There must be more to it than psyche.
DeleteNor would most people. But without enough support and care, a few get driven over the edge, and everyone acts out their problems in a different manner. I'm not saying better quality and access to mental health care would be a cure-all, but I do think it would significantly ease the problem.
DeleteAnd I'm sorry you feel that way about yourself. I've been there myself.
I was on such drugs for a few years, and about 80% of the department I worked for ended up on some kind of anti-depressant due to extreme abuse from upper management. I can tell you first hand that I had many many days when I had complete breaks with reality. There were days when I had thoughts or memories that I didn't know if they were real or something I had dreamed. I was not alone in that. After that experience I knew how easy it would be for someone to commit suicide or murder without understanding the reality of it, especially young people who don't have a strong sense of self yet.
DeleteRedhorse, better mental health care, at least in my opinion, does not mean resorting to drugging everyone who presents any kind of problem. I think psychiatric drugs are widely over-prescribed. I was briefly on them for a few months a few decades ago when I was in my 20s, and it was a miserable experience, just as you described.
DeleteMost importantly, the drugs don't solve any problems. They just mask them. For people who really want to work through their psychological issues, they're going to have to WORK with a therapist. It's not just a matter of sitting around re-hashing your childhood with someone in a closed room. For many of the people I've worked with, it's the hardest thing they've ever done. This takes a significant of time and effort from both the client and the clinician.
And it's still barely enough. Which is why I say we need far more time, money, research, and funding for mental health care. And a lot less for gun lobbies.
I know this might be a controversial thought, but I wonder if, as our society becomes more distant from religion, these crimes will become more common. If one believes there is nothing after this life, why not kill others, especially if you're already willing to kill yourself.
ReplyDeleteThere also seems to be a greater respect/beat-down culture that sees vicious fighting or killing as admirable?
As far as rights go... my rights should not be restricted, nor should I be treated as a criminal when I'm not. Further - let's see those who would like to strip us of these rights put aside the weaponry used for their protection. Their lives, to me, are no less replaceable than anyone else's.
I am not religious, and I find your assumption that people who are not religious would be more likely to kill others very insulting. I have a very strong sense of ethics and right and wrong. Ethics/morals come from the society you live in, how you were raised in that society, and the society's ideas of right and wrong.
ReplyDeleteLet's look at the Crusades or any other manner of "Holy Wars" all fought in the name of religion, and all bloody and extremely cruel. Wars are fought over resources. Often the powers that be incite(d) the people to war by invoking some religious reason they should do so. They used religion to spur people to fight a war over resources that the leaders wanted.
I think most blanket statements and generalizations can be dangerous. It's smacks of prejudice to me. "Oh, black people are like this; Asians are like that," or "people who are more distant from religion are more likely to kill." Please...
Just so you know... the hypothesis about religion and mass killings had nothing to do with "morals" or "ethics." And there were no "blanket statements." My thoughts had more to do with a fear of the afterlife, or consequences that reverberate in the soul. This pertained to these mass murder events that are in the news especially having to do with gun rights.
ReplyDeleteCertainly, a zealous atheist or agnostic could have any sort of sense of right and wrong that meets their own self-determined standards. But, unlike a Christian or Hindu, they probably don't worry about what happens to them after this life. But now that I reread my post, I was clear about this the first time.
I'm pretty sure these mass-murderers, pagan, atheist, Jewish or none-of-the-above, had a ethical/moral upbringing sufficient to know that what they were choosing to do was wrong. But did they worry about Hell, or did they think their suffering would end with their death?
Now, war is an entirely different case. I was writing about the Oregon shooting and it's effect on gun rights.
Adam Lanza of the SandyHook shootings was raised in a Catholic school. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
DeleteOne of the kids from the Columbine shooting was raised Lutheran
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Harris_and_Dylan_Klebold
James Eagan Holmes of the Colorado movie theater shootings in 2012, was raised in a Lutheran church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Eagan_Holmes
My grandfather, a devout Catholic was extremely cruel. He loved to smack us around(starting when we were about 2yrs old), and laughed at us when we cried. He also had a "Yeah, so what?" attitude about being a child molester.
Yes, there have been Atheist shooters also, but clearly being Christian/religious isn't a guarantee for a good, moral person
FWIW, a good friend of mine is a staunch Atheist and gun owner. He's very kind and generous and also one of the most level-headed, sane people I know. He got that way without religion.
C.
C., just because people align themselves with a particular religion does not make them a Christian, even if they go to church, read the bible, were raised in a church or claim to be devout.
DeleteThese people may have had a church affiliation, but Jesus was definitely NOT in their heart or guiding their life.
Just my opinion and experience.
Who gets to decide which people are "real" Christian?
DeleteThere are terrorist Christian organizations, the KKK is a Christian organization, abortion clinic bombings/killings are often linked to militant Christian groups
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
In most all of these mass shootings, the shooter has a history of some sort of psychosis/mental instability, being bullied/rejected(perceived or otherwise), and close access to lots of guns. No amount of religion will stop psychosis.
C.
Totally agree C. Imo gun violence is a result of a bigger issue. Like the symptom of a disease or condition not the root cause. We have to find and treat with the root cause. Until will do violence with guns or something else will not subside.
DeleteI don't know the answers but I do believe that more guns are not the solution.
ReplyDeleteI think both lobbying sides of the gun control issue use scare tactics and extreme examples. I believe there has to be a sensible middle that includes better controls (background checks, gun show loophole closed, restricted magazine sizes for automatic weapons, and accountability for the industry) along with a focus and money for mental health and a commitment to address chronic poverty/systemic community oppression. Easy right?
ReplyDeleteThere isn't a gun show loop hole, that's a myth.
DeleteI'm confused redhorse. I found this info (it doesn't have a date on it) clearly showing that background checks at gun shows are required in some states, but not every state.
Deletehttp://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/gun-show-firearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html
There are already tons of regs on the books.
DeleteBackground checks and waiting periods are already required. I had to wait 2 weeks to get my .22 and fill out a raft of paperwork.
Magazine size is restricted in many states. But, many mass shooters have not used large magazines. In CA my shotgun can only old 3 shells and my .22 mag limit is 10.
If you make the gun manufactures liable then you open up a very messy and damaging can of worms, not just for the gun companies, but for any company whose product could be used to kill someone, i.e. cars, toys, tools, anything has the potential to be a weapon in the hands of someone bent on causing harm.
I think the bigger and conversation is how have we gotten to a point where young people feel that shooting up a school will solve their problems or relieve their pain. How have we sunk so low as a society that our young people feel so helpless and angry and lash out?
Not an easy question, any of it. But, one thing I do know is that a society has never been improved by taking away their rights and liberties.
I think both lobbying sides of the gun control issue use scare tactics and extreme examples. I believe there has to be a sensible middle that includes better controls (background checks, gun show loophole closed, restricted magazine sizes for automatic weapons, and accountability for the industry) along with a focus and money for mental health and a commitment to address chronic poverty/systemic community oppression. Easy right?
ReplyDeletemy two cents...
Delete-require extensive training and liscencing in order to own a gun (it's easier to get a gun permit than a drivers lisence)
-put high federal/state taxes on firearm sales like we do alcohol or tobacco
-use the tax revenues to fund mental health care & strengthen local communities where there are rampant problems
Agree 12:04. I'm not against legal gun ownership, but I do think that semi and fully automatic weapons, and assault weapons should only be available to military and police. There is absolutely NO reason any regular citizen should have the need for one of those weapons.
ReplyDeleteYes. I believe that for most people, guns fall into the category of a luxury item, that's why I think guns and ammunition should be heavily taxed like alcohol and tobacco. I live in a rural area, where there seem to be more than a few gun owners. Most fall into two categories: gun collectors, and sport hunters. Neither are a necessary pasttime. Even living in a very rural area, I know of exactly one person who hunts for food. You could have legal exemptions for those who truly need a gun for their occupation (say a rancher who needs to pick off the occasional marauding predator), much like I have a state sales tax exemption number for farm purchases.
DeleteAs a small single woman who has been sexually assaulted in the past, I have a concealed carry license and own a small handgun for personal protection. I attended many gun safety and training classes. I have thankfully never had to use it. I would happily pay high taxes for the privilege of owning it, and jump through as many legal hoops as necessary to maintain my license. If we could just make the licensing laws much tighter.
I absolutely do not see the need for any citizen to own anything other than a handgun or single-shot rifle.
"gun collectors, and sport hunters. Neither are a necessary pasttime."
DeleteDictating one's past time is not the job of the govt. What if there was a ban on something you liked to do? Like gardening. It's not necessary to garden or homestead, we have farmers to provide us with food and multinational companies to bring it in from all over the world.
Most hobbies and past time pleasures are not necessites.
When making a knee jerk reaction/plan to curb this kind of tragedy you have to be careful what the long term ramifications could be and how other areas, rights, liberties will be affected by it.
I heard an interesting NPR segment that said certain immigration rules, made in the 60's, meant to curb immigration from non-European countries actually was the door that opened massive immigration, which was not the intended goal.
Just using this as an example.
Guns and ammo are already heavily taxed. The cost of taxes and registration is more than the cost of the gun and bullets. When the communists took over China they decided that dogs were a waste of food and they went through the country killing them. I don't want to live in that kind of country, and neither will you if you experience it.
ReplyDeleteMexico has no legal gun ownership, and they are not a peaceful society. Chicago has a total ban on gun ownership and the highest number of shootings per capita.
Yes gun violence is highest in places with strong so called gun controls. DC is another high violence area.
DeletePlus there are bans, laws, regs on lots of things that are out of control--drugs, underage drinking, zero tolerance for bullying etc.
These are not (fill in the blank) issues these are human issues. Until you deal with and fix the human element you won't solve the result of the human issue i.e. Gun violence.
Again, it gets down to how far we have sunk as a society overall not the perceived ease of buying guns and ammo. I mean seriously how many times more do we read in the news about a group of thugs beating up an old person or disabled person for fun. In my area we have a huge reward out for info on the people who beat and skinned a dog before killing it. What kind of completely lost, sick, deranged people do that and then make fun of it in a note? That's the human element I'm talking about. If people are bent on that kind of savage behavior they will find a way, and controls, bans, waiting periods have nothing to do with it.
Speaking as someone who lives elsewhere in the world (looking from the outside in), seems to me that the U.S. collectively needs to have a serious, robust, non-politicised conversation around gun control. Also seems to me that the right to bear arms (as enshrined in your Constitution) was relevant when it was enacted, but is rather outdated in our modern world.
ReplyDeleteThis may just be the best speech re: gun control yet.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5at0lBv0Zog